MT - One of my personal criticisms of the degrowth/postgrowth movement is that it doesn't feel inclusive enough - many conversations, research papers and debates are strongly connected to academic institutions. It could be argued that the people who would benefit the most from degrowth are being kept out of the conversation. How do you think we "break down the walls" and make this a more inclusionary movement?
JC - I believe you're quite right that critiques of endless economic growth as capitalism's defining characteristic have emerged primarily from intellectual circles, universities, and research institutions. This isn't necessarily a limitation, as it has established a robust scientific and political foundation for exploring alternatives based on biophysical constraints, anthropological and historical evidence, and socioeconomic realities.
This academic grounding has also enabled the movement to unite various strands of thinking and activism into a more coherent and developed proposition that can engage with like-minded grassroots communities globally, including those involved in social and solidarity economics.
The book examines two such frameworks as complementary movements: The Commons and Peer-to-Peer networks. These, along with several other approaches, share climate justice as their unifying principle. Embracing climate reparations could prove an effective route towards creating a more decolonising and inclusive movement.
MT - Having literally just finished reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire, how relevant do you feel such a book is today, and whether or not much progress has been made towards embracing a more dialogical and problem-posing education style? How do you feel this aligns with your own book and the emphasis on a knowledge-based society?
JC - Both Paulo Freire and Ivan Illich are experiencing renewed appreciation within Degrowth circles and have influenced my own work. As I acknowledged in A Modern Guide to Knowledge: From Knowledge Societies to Knowledge in the Anthropocene (Edward Elgar, 2022): "Paulo Freire, in his Pedagogy of the Oppressed, characterised the banking model of education whereby 'the educator's role is to regulate the way the world "enters into" the students' ... [a perspective that] involves a subject-object dichotomy as well as a disconnection from contextual meaning ... The cultivation of critical consciousness, the fostering of epistemic autonomy, and the empowerment of all learning participants is essential to redefining learning within society" (pp. 197-198).
This appraisal is reflected in Degrowth through KBD: "... a counter-hegemonic culture that nurtures communities' sense of identity and capacity to respond is necessary. Freire's critical pedagogy corresponds with this aim, giving rise to recent developments such as open disciplinarity, convergence, bridging, and actionable knowledge" (p. 82).
MT - If we consider that knowledge is an underlying requirement to move towards a progressive and liveable world for everyone, how do you feel about the recent lack of trust in the media and a disinformation movement that the internet and social media has helped to fuel? And how do we go about resolving this - surely social media firms need more accountability here?
JC - Knowledge is equally essential for understanding and freeing society from the pervasive control exerted by surveillance capitalism (Zuboff) or technofeudalism (Varoufakis), which subconsciously shapes our everyday decisions through our digital behavioural surplus. This liberation requires an enormous cultural transformation, one that may necessitate harsh biophysical realities to prompt action, such as extreme weather events and the socioeconomic costs of a shifting Biosphere.
I agree with Ted Trainer that we cannot break free from capitalism's overconsumption system because the entire culture contains embedded contingencies that dictate everyone's behaviour. Until we recognise this and respond effectively, climate collapse appears unavoidable.
MT - I'm interested in how you came across the idea of degrowth as a concept of helping to prevent further environmental and societal damage - especially considering your own personal background and experience. Was there a particular event that led you towards the idea of degrowth?
JC - My colleagues at The World Capital Institute and I come from the professional fields of knowledge management (KM) and intellectual capital (IC), which emerged in the late 1980s. Once into the new millennium, we became aware that KM and IC had the potential to drive cultural transformation through identifying, understanding, and nurturing non-monetised collective value or social knowledge capital.
We recognised the tension between commodifying the knowledge economy and creating commons through knowledge-based development (KBD) via knowledge cities and consequently became more attuned to alternative economics and climate justice. Personally, I developed a keen interest in Social Ecological Economics, and from there the transition towards Degrowth was a natural progression.
MT - Your book talks a lot about Knowledge Based Development (KBD) - and based on recent developments in technology including AI, do you feel that AI has a place to part within the shift towards a more safe future for everyone? Critics will argue that AI might in fact be doing the opposite - with its high environmental cost, the removal of real jobs for humans, theft of human art and other forms of work, etc.
JC - KBD aims to establish viable relationships between people and planet through socialising both tangible and intangible value (collective capital systems). This would enable continued improvement in the understanding and application of a more respectful human habitation of Earth. Insofar as AI, along with other often overlooked intangible capitals such as social cohesion, tolerance, and diversity, can contribute to this objective, they should be welcomed. However, I fear the current AI hype is driven more by oligopolistic, ideological, and geopolitical pressures than by visions of human flourishing.
Part of the cultural shift required for human viability in the Anthropocene involves abandoning the confusion between human adaptability and computing power, and instead exploring their complementarity (which also applies to quantum computing and every other hard and soft technology).
Rather than the dead-end approach of current AI mega-investments that may soon reach their energy-availability limits, a sufficiency approach recently demonstrated by Chinese company DeepSeek, which has managed to outperform dominant resource-intensive models, appears viable.
MT - What do you feel needs to happen for the world to begin to take degrowth seriously and to start engaging with and adopting its policies?
JC - Once climate change becomes sufficiently painful globally; proportionate responses may follow. Whether enough time will remain, we don't know. But the possibility of survival and re-adaptation of our species may yet be sustained by the infusion of critical imagination from the arts and community life into social conscience and political activism.